litphoria

Most online communities, especially those with access to sexual content have an 18+ rule. Several people come here and leave once they see that teenagers are allowed.

Feedback changed to reflect true desire, a 18+ age gate for the entire site.

Yeah, seconding this. 13+ is kinda silly given the bulk of the actual content on this site.

I'd prefer 18+ sitewide, but I know that WA intends the site to not necessarily be sex-focused.

That may be, but the majority of content that is publicly viewable is sexual. That's only part of why this feedback was posted.

Mm I support this.

Im all for this. I know from deep personal experience that 13 is not old enough to be making properly informed decisions about sexual content online, especially sexual content that is mutually created between individuals.

Is there sexual content that's publicly viewable? I could be wrong, and please correct me if so, but there's sexual flags that can be activated on individual characters and individual RPs to mark them as requiring the 18+ age gate already isn't there or am I misunderstanding how the site works. If those tools aren't being effectively utilized then locking the whole site down to 18+ seems to be a scorched earth measure and a clear declaration that RP here is expected to be porn.

This has less to do with sexual content then it has to do with a common trait that most online communities, Even those with ZERO sexual content, are 18+ A good deal, around 50% of the people I have invited to the site refuse to give it a chance because of the 13+ age limit. Making the site 18+ will not change much in all honesty, but it will make more people feel comfortable making profiles and being active here. Nearly everyone I've spoken to has mentioned something to the tune of "the site is dead/empty/hard to find partners" This will in a small way, help with that by making the site more attractive to potential users.

Is most content here sexual? yes.

Are most "public" channels and RP's sexual? yes.

These are currently behind a room to room/RP to RP age wall. A simple mistake in not marking a room/RP as sexual and ruin this. Think of all the "PG-13" rules we are forced to follow, that if the site was 18+ would no longer be a concern.

There are several reasons to make it 18+ I've yet to see a single good reason to allow teenagers.

I couldn't speak to most online communities. The ones I've enjoyed and been a part of as a community have all been incredibly open and without age restriction. Every online community with a clear age restriction never clicked and I drifted away from. That's just personal experience though and I certainly understand that may be the exact opposite of the norm. I agree, finding partners and a feeling of emptiness aren't helping lit keep new users but I don't see the benefit in telling a subset of people they're unwelcome.

I would argue initiating this site-wide policy will mark it as a smut site wholesale. Any younger people not interested in group porn will never enter. Those very interested in it will lie about their age (and likely already are). Those above 18 will enter and there is a good chance will assume this is a smut site based entirely on the asking (though it depends heavily on the method in which it's asked). If things being mismarked is a concern, there are alternatives to combat that such as making an adult rated character's RPs come pre-flagged as adult or word flagging for review. Something as simple as mentions of anatomy notifying the RP creator to double check the setting but that's a separate issue altogether.

I don't see this change as alleviating us of any restrictions either. Currently under PG-13 rules we get to avoid a lot of drama provided they're followed. Avatars are as a general rule not offensive. With the 18+ age rating in place maybe we lose the 'no genitals in your profile pic thumbnail' rule, but it would only be replaced with new requests for restriction. 'No pictures detailing hard kinks' comes to mind. Then it's an argument of what would be a hard kink. Is X too far, if it is then why isn't Y banned too.

To Summarize how I see it:
18+ sitewide
* Encourages smut as the primary RP.
* Swaps PG13 rules for new, more lax rules yet to be determined.
* May improve retention of people bothered by teenagers.
* Removes chance of missing the adult check box during setup.

13+ with 18+ agewall
* May improve retention of teenagers.
* Requires adherence to PG13 ruling for anything publicly view-able.
* This method requires a pretty clear division for ease of use or we're getting the worst of both worlds. Currently how well is the site divided for those marked as <18?

I have no strong opinion one way or the other, but it's been suggested so I'm here to discuss it. How aggressively would this be enforced?

That being said can you think of ANY hard reasons why we NEED to allow teenagers?

The sites intention is to be RP, ERP is allowed but isn't the focus. Changing it to 18+ won't change that at all.

Also. we've already had Avatars that borderline on sexual, even WITH the 13+ rules in place.

In terms on enforcement that is all on WA. Other sites generally need a user to be "reported" as being suspected of being under age, and then they require some form of ID to prove the age of the user in question.

What hard reason do we have to block potential incoming RP partners? The only definitive reason I've seen cited so far is that the very option of people being underage makes people uncomfortable. Leaving it as it is, there are tools to put up walls wherever you want or need them. All the same risks exist of someone lying to circumvent the age-gate with all the same enforcement tools if that happens whether it's RP specific or site wide.

Exactly, Teenagers who want to come here will simply lie to get around it, so we're not losing any users there.

The idea that there are a large number of 14 yer olds who want purely story based RP is a fallacy I believe. The fact is that the VAST majority of the sites content is sexual. Even adults who ARE NOT seeking sexual play, do not want to join a site that OPENLY allows teenagers. From a maturity stand point also, there are reasons to bar underage users.

The only reason NOT to add a 18+ age wall to the site is to cater to the possibility that teenagers are seeking non sexual RP, and are mature enough to do so without breaking the age wall rules currently in place.

I'd rather keep the official age barrier at 13+ and not mark it up to 18+.

We do need more effective & visible controls on what's 18+. Currently the Sexual flag gets used less effectively than it can be, and the front page presentation doesn't hide people from sexual content anyway. So, visibility and actually hiding stuff are necessary. We're getting along without that OK so far.

I like the pg-13 rules. I like seeing avatars that are PG-13, I like the absence of avatars with dicks in them. I like the fact we have a Main Channel that does away with sexual content - conversations just move to adult main, and the only time I've ever seen that be a problem is when someone complains they've gotta move channels.

Further, I like that this site isn't flagged as a smut/porn site focused around banging people. Somehow it's gathered a crowd that does roleplays oriented around adult or mature topics of a non-sexual nature in addition to all the sexy/kinky stuff. That's pretty awesome. I think the fact we have some inclination to support 13+ content (even if the features aren't quite fleshed-out for it yet) helps that along.

Part of WA's long-term goals for the site, as I recall, is that the site should be supporting the sub-18 crowd properly eventually. It doesn't yet. It's going to be awkward as hell moving from 18+ adult site to accepting teenagers who can handle mature topics as well. Much less awkward to actually implement some proper content controls like those that exist on amateur literature or fanfic sites. (Many of those participants will be teenagers who willingly expose themselves to mature, adult or sexual topics. I don't find this an awful tragedy, I was totally willing to explore all those topics as a kid and was going to do it and if it wasn't on one site it'd be another.) There's an opportunity cost in declaring ourselves an 18+ site so it isn't something to do lightly.

One of the cited reasons for the change is that people are getting turned away by it being 13+. I don't think that's reason enough to engage in the potential cost of painting this as primarily a porn site de facto. It's currently pretty smutty de jure but the fact we maintain a 13+ attitude de facto helps level that out into all kinds of topics.

Also frankly if this place became completely about sex I'd stop using it for as many things as I do. So, when I say I like those PG-13 rules, I really really like those PG-13 rules and the fact one of the primary channels is one where sex is ruled off.

Without hard data I can't comment on it being a fallacy, all I have are my own experiences. I started RPing at 11 or 12 and openly avoided sexual play until 16-17 so I can cite at least one case of this exact thing occurring and out of deference to the communities I was trying to be a part of I avoided any RP location with an 18+ agewall. Maturity wise I don't see a great benefit in blocking teens there either, unless WA can point out that people who have been most disruptive all fall under the age wall I would expect the same degree of maturity (or lack thereof) we already enjoy (or suffer from). I personally do not see any benefit in blocking teenagers aside from removing the need for the 'this is 18+' box on profiles and RPs.

I started roleplaying around like 14 or 15 and was doing sexual play around the same age you were doing it, Astarte (16-17). I can definitely attest that maturity & disruptiveness have only a loose connection to age, as well.

Ok then, When you have most people here seeking Sexual RP, and unable to find it, THIS IS WHY Then they leave and the site stays small.

18+ has little to NOTHING to do with this site being smut based or not. There are several topics that the average 14 year old is not emotionally equipped or mature enough to handle BESIDES sex.

I for one am getting a little sick of the "this place is empty" mentality. Changing the age wall, among other things, will help to attract more active users. You're openly admitting that mature teenagers will have ZERO issue lying about this to get at the sexual RP. So making it 18+ does not lose us users. However keeping it 13+ Does in fact turn off a fair number of potential users.

I'm confused, you've said Quen that "18+ has little to NOTHING to do with the site being smut based or not" right after saying "...people here seeking sexual RP, and unable to find it, THIS IS WHY". I can't follow. To me this seems entirely about the image of the site. I have openly admitted those that are underage and seeking sexual RP will skip the agewall, and assumed those not seeking sexual RP will leave.

If you are here strictly for sex, then yes you lose nothing by this change. If you've any interest in both, the entire culture of the website has been nudged in one direction, towards more erotic play.

You're right, part of this IS about image. The current image frightens people off because it allows teenagers.

And I say AGAIN 18+ does not make the site suddenly about porn.

I disagree with your assertion Quenthell. 18+ gives the impression, the image of porn, which has all the same effect as making the site porn-centric. Nobody I know hits a site with an "Are you 18+?" banner and expects there will be a dedicated discussion of the disadvantages facing the third world. Nope, ass and titties all the way.

I also don't understand people frightened off by teenagers. Flagging their RPs and going into flagged rooms has all the same effect.

Well then we have to agree to disagree. I've been members of gaming sites and clans/teams that have all been 18+ on a base maturity/responsibility level. Nothing to do with sex at all. I personally don't even want to chat with a child, much less engage in a serious RP, Sexual or not.

I disagree with the assessment of 18+ is tits and ass, but who knows maybe it is just people who are younger the 18 that will see it that way, For me 18+ tends to be a cut off for clans and guilds that don't want to deal with people younger then that with exceptions given every so often. I know this isn't a clan or guild, but it is a gather of people with a common interest and goals for the most part. I will say I'm very happy with this discussion so far since there haven't been any personal attacks.

Astarte people aren't frightened by teenagers so much as the legal issues people of a younger age can cause by their presence and the litigious world we live in.

Boiling this issue down to its core, it's expanding an 18+ wall from some core places of the site to encompass the site as a whole. If people have concerns over litigation and feel an 18+ wall gives them some benefit, the tool is there for their use whenever they want it. Seeing as how these features aren't fully implemented yet, I would be in (reluctant) support of an 18+ requirement site-wide until the feature set to support younger players is fully implemented.

Posting mostly so I get alerts on this.

On topic, I'd like to keep the 13+ rating. Yeah, I absolutely hate teenagers and the idea of RPing with them, but I also really like not seeing genitals on icons, and I also like that I can go into main chat and not be bombarded with sexual bits.

I'd personally suggest keeping the site as it is, rating-wise, and working harder on age-walling adult content. This may involve moderators. This may involve a lot of coding. This site feels safe for me and my weird mental tics, and if it'd help, I'd be willing to help moderate with tagging RPs as adult, even if it meant reading them (don't like that, I feel like a creep).

We could also implement multiple agewalls. We could have 18+ Porn, 18+ Mature (politics, religion, crime, et cetera), 18+ Gore, and 18+ General (everything or just a preference). These have been used on another site I'm on to wonderful effect. People post porn where it's listed, they keep it away from 18+ Mature, and things run pretty smoothly.

Another site I've seen that allows teenagers actually has a section called "liberteen" for kids to explore stuff in legal safety, cuz kids RP porn a lot. It's incentive to be honest, along with a perma-ban for anyone who lies about their age and gets caught, or people who try to circumvent the agewall.

Before we decide on turning the whole site into 18+ only, let's see what we can do instead to make it more friendly for everyone who's already allowed on here.

I'd like to point out nearly everything you listed is a reason for moderator tools, not really any of it is a reason to keep 13+.

What it ultimately comes down to is the age is 13 and not 18 because

I don't want to work on an adult-only site.

The fact that we have a lot of adult content does not mean we need to create a self-fulfilling prophecy where we only possibly more attract adult-only content, and I simply do not buy the argument that 18+ wouldn't imply that, since that's exactly what that implies everywhere else (except gaming clans apparently?).

Doing it on maturity is even more absurd to me. I've known some 15 year olds that were more mature than some people in their 20s, and more responsible as well.

So no matter what the community says you're going to do what you want. Isn't that kind of against the entire idea of implementing feedback? Not buying that 99% of online communities are 18+ is all well and good, but it's not reality.

This endorsement has 255 points. As a reality check, that's less than 0.01% of possible endorsements, and hardly surprising with how often you link and advertise this.

This is typically why I don't allow any endorsing on these things until we've had some discussion. If you use the support of people who want something as a bludgeon against people who don't, all you're doing is killing the conversation.

As a reality check you've passed feedback with less points then this, more people agreed then disagreed in the comment thread.

I think the site should be kept how it is. I like the PG-13 rules for avatars and such, and I don't like the atmosphere that tends to be created on sites that don't have that.I think that the assumption that there is not a large amount of teenagers who are looking to do nonsexual roleplay is completely wrong. Look at the Warriors forums, it's absolutely full of it. Many PG-13 sites dedicated to specific fandoms have active roleplay sections, and I think this site is well suited to hosting those types of players with the ability to tag characters and such by canons.

I'm going to explain how feedback gets handled here on Litphoria. This is a noteworthy issue with some support and opposition, and you all might appreciate some clarity on our process.

I'm one of the community managers. We oversee feedback and assist in planning site development, among other responsibilities. You'll learn more about us in a future announcement. What’s important in this context is there's a team overseeing what happens to suggestions, and our decision making is careful and measured.

Endorsement and expressions of support are not the be-all end-all of our decision making process, not being a reliable indicator of what’s best for the site at any given time. (Many low-effort highly effective changes come through feedback and get implemented with very little community attention, while an idea to give profiles 900 images might be popular but damage the site in the long term.) Instead, we consider community interest in addition to whether the change would clearly benefit - or harm - the community, whether it helps us achieve our goals as a premier literature platform, and whether it's feasible. The community's response to a potential change is also important, but not just as a "for" vs "against" scoring system - what people say helps us better understand the other factors as well, and perhaps helps us better understand what change needs to happen.

Communities tend to produce a lot of competing ideas over what the precise problem is (and whether there is one), and this good community is no exception. This means development staff often have to understand what the real problem is, and what can be done about it (which may not align completely with any particular suggested solution). This community is, however, consistently reliable at finding areas the site needs to improve, and feedback exists to find out about that - we wouldn’t very well go to all this trouble just to ignore people.

Once feedback is accepted, we use its endorsement points to help prioritise things. Just the same, other factors like effort and urgency are considered in determining priority.

At the time of writing there are 400 endorsement points on this suggestion, and I've read the responses (some for, some against, some neither precisely). None of that means this is settled one way or the other yet.

(If you have more questions about how feedback works, I invite you to ask them in Litphoria systems chat)

Although I mostly poke around now looking for updates since my friends trickled away, I want to put in my two cents here.

I am 32 and I would leave if this site were 18+. There are plenty of 18+ RP sites that do just fine.

I don't think anybody really believes that having to check a box saying they're 18+ will keep curious teenagers out of any site - although that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, it's much more effective to register your site with content filtering appliances and services and trust parents to be responsible.

The idea of maintaining a 13+ and an 18+ space on the site is a good one in principle, and I respect WA's goal of having this be a more general RP site, but it's important to be realistic; the site has been open for a long time now and 99% of the roleplays are sexual.

Another measure I would propose is hiding 18+ content entirely if you haven't said that you're 18+. I deleted my agewall cookie and had a look just now and of the 25 roleplays on the recent page only 3 were non-18+. It would be good to have a PG13 or Nonsexual tag at the top in the same way that there's a Recent one, or a filter checkbox/dropdown.

We definitely need more filtering and flagging for adult stuff vs not. I've had a few conversations with other people on staff about the best way to approach that kind of scenario. Lots of ideas came out of that, like content ratings (which is how similar sites that have material that is both sexual or not handle it).

It really shouldn't surprise anyone that we have a lot of sexual content on the site, given most of the people here followed me from f-list, which is a porn site. However, we're still quite small, and the point of the site being able to be used for anything is still applicable. Moreover, if we make it 18+, we've created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Making it 18+ does not inherently mean that all RP will be sexual.

No, it won't necessarily mean Lit becomes porn-only with an 18+ rating, but most people signing up will assume that it means Lit is a sexual site, because 18+ has become synonymous on the internet with porn. Every site I've been that labels itself 18+ has been porn, and most people would expect no exceptions from this, and would probably target non-smut players as being on the wrong site if we did label 18+, and I don't believe WA wants that.

Fuck knows, I don't want that. I'd be one of those people targeted as being 'on the wrong site' for non-smut RP. I have been in the past on other sites, and I like Lit. I don't want to feel like I'm even more of a minority because I play stories for the sake of telling stories rather than sending blood into my crotch.

The fact that Lit is a 13+ site is a relief for me. Sure, most RPs here are sexual or smutty in nature, but my RPs are still welcomed. I don't feel excluded for my preferences entirely because Lit is 13+.

Back on f-list, where this site gets most of its users, I got messages DAILY telling me to "put out" or get off the site. When I did make the occasional smut character, people who recognized me would get condescending and make comments like "Oh, so you're finally making a character that's going to get RP!" It was frustrating, it was depressing, and it took months for me to remember that getting that sort of treatment is not 'what I deserve' or 'what is normal' in a community. I don't want to go through that again. I don't want Lit to ever be so excluding. Lit is special to me because it stands for all F-list is not. Please, can we keep it that way?

It comes back to this. Why are we allowing 13 year-olds on a site that already is mostly sexual RP. It's asking for legal trouble as well as keeping more people away then it attracts. I cannot stress enough that 18+ will in NO WAY make the site a porn site. I've been part of several gaming communities that were 18+. 18+ will in no way limit non-sexual RP in any way either.

Let's not talk about legality. If it becomes a legal issue, then this will be forced one way or the other - so it would be of little consequence to bother talking about it.

As for keeping more people "away", sites with a lot of nonsexual content are almost always 13+, not 18+. Look at sites like ao3 or ff.net - they're 13+. Then look at sites like f-list and rpc, which are both 18+, and severely struggling non-sexual communities.

The standard for pretty much every website is 13+, due to the laws about keeping information for minors. You bump it up to 18 if you want to have unmarked porn laying around. This has been known since the beginning of web pages as we know it, and it feels incredibly disingenuous to imply this is actually about "maturity" or such.

You can say that you've met 13 year olds more mature then 18 year olds and I'm sure in a few cases it's true. But the VAST majority of teenagers are not mature enough to handle the content on a site like this. Out of all the RP's listed on the front page, nearly all of them are sexual. So yes maturity is part of it. Non-sexual RP is not hard to find here as it is. We have one user rather consistently pointing out they have 20+ of them. Making the age gate to the site 18+ will in NO WAY change that.

The number of people who have said they would leave if the site is 18+ is still VASTLY less then the number of people who have said they refuse to join the site because of the current age gate.

Most of you who disagree with this are acting as if an 18+ age gate automatically makes the site f-list. Most if not all of us have had bad times on F-list. However I've been on f-list for years and I've NEVER been told to "put out or get off the site" This site is already vastly different then F-list RPH/RPC. An 18+ age gate will do nothing to make litph a clone of those sites, instead it will attract more active users, something this place desperately needs.

I can only really ask that people stop projecting bad experiences from f-list on to how they assume Litphoria will operate.

We're not saying the site will literally turn into F-List plus all bad experiences, we're saying it'd be pretty likely to become a site that's only for smut. It isn't right now - it's a site that feels appropriate for nonsexual roleplay too. "It wont change that" yes it will.

I suppose that's a valid point of view, I just personally disagree with it. We already have an idea here that smut and non smut are equally fine, nothign wrong with one or the other. I don't see the age gate change altering that at all.

Then we disagree on that.

That's what the feedback forum is for. We all express our ideas and points of view and the decisions are made from there.

I think the issue might be new members who don't come here by being our friends, and will come from places where Lit is linked (right now that I know of, it's linked publicly on F-list and on Iwaku). My worry is that new members registering will misunderstand the reason for the age rating of the site, and treat it not as a site where both smut and non-smut can coexist in harmony, but a site that should be just for smut.

That is what I would like to avoid, if possible. I'm not worried about current members because everyone I know here is very respectful and accepting.

Right now, when viewing the site in "13+ mode" where you get warnings about kinky stuff, it already feels 18+ anyway. Click the main links at the top and you'll see sex everywhere.

It'd probably be a lot of work to actually hide everything properly when you want to view the site without porn, but it might be worth it.

Honestly, making the site 18+ would feel like another f-list. If we can just completely age-restrict certain content on Litphoria to prevent kiddos from trying to see that or rp smut with those who are adults on the site, then that could fix the issues. That's just my suggestion.

Tyne, it's an effort I feel worth taking, if we wish to have a proper non-sexual community to go along with the sexual one.

Sans, there's already a very simple age-wall for RPs and profiles that are marked as adult. This will probably be expanded into more general content ratings, so instead of just "sexual" or "not sexual", we'd have things like "general", "mature", and "adult" roleplays, profiles, etc. Combined with a way to filter, and the site can feel as clean or lewd as need be.

I think that suggesting a better way to filter the content on the site would work much easier for everyone. Improving the filters is a lot better than thinking that turning the site strictly 18+ would solve the problem. Everyone has a choice on what they want to play and who to play it with, they don't need a change in policy or site restrictions to give them that. Some adults can still roleplay with those under the age, they just can't engage in sexual writing activity and vice versa. Litphoria shouldn't just be all about the smut or sexual content, it should be best of both worlds, which I am pretty sure was what WA had intended when they created the site in the first place.

I cannot stress enough that 18+ does not automatically make the site smut only.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that making the site 18+ would automatically turn everything into smut. Of course it wouldn't.

But type "18+ roleplay" or "adult roleplay" into google and see how many sex focused sites you get. You might notice that sites like Bluemoon and Guilty Pleasures get far fewer hits on their non-sexual boards than any of the others,even though they're both "adult" and not "smut" forums. And links to those places are mixed in with sites like kinksterschat and questions about where people can find the best sexual rp. Whether or not this site is actually only smut won't keep it from being perceived that way.

That would be a flawed perception then, I stand firmly by the notion that not everyone assumes that 18+ means smut only. As I've said before several online communities have similar age-gates and are not perceived this way.

We are declining this suggestion. Litphoria will not be an 18+ age gated site.

We haven’t made this decision lightly, and we haven’t done it without considerable thought about how to address the concerns expressed in this feedback.

Litphoria’s goal is to support both nonsexual roleplay and sexual roleplay equally. The main thing we're interested in here is culture; we’re interested in the culture that comes with a non-18+ site, like AO3 and Iwaku. You can see this interest in some of our decisions, like prohibiting explicit content in avatars. We feel that branding the site as 18+ will shift perceptions about what the site is for, fairly or not, into one that is mostly an adult and sexual-orientated experience.

Our challenge here is how we can achieve supporting both equally. Our current systems aren’t sufficient -- we can understand a lot of the concern on that basis alone. There are now plans in the works for content filtering so as to allow people to limit their exposure to certain kinds of material, like sexual content. We have other plans to encourage more diversity in our content as well, like writing contests.

This decision to not be exclusively 18+ does not have any wiggle room and we do not have any intentions of revisiting this decision any time soon. This may also mean this is not the site for people averse to teenagers being here. That being said, if you have ideas for making the site more appropriately inclusive to everyone, we’d love to hear your thoughts.