litphoria

Mainly to allow things like "Asian humans" and "elfin demihumans" to be searched without expanding the species list outwardly.

A species Elf would make more sense than an "Elfin demihuman".

I like this idea a lot. The thing is, most of our species categories aren't species at all. They're groupings of multiple species, and some are far more diverse than others. Elves do fit under the demihuman umbrella, but so do... loooots of other stuff. And the same is true of, say, Insect or Feline. Some, on the other hand, are a lot more specific, like Bat. That's still not a species, but it's much more in line with the way species is actually being used here (a general grouping of creatures who are similar in some way). It says a lot more about the character than Demihuman or Insect, that's for sure.

This creates two issues:
1. Because the Species category includes many different levels of detail, it's not 100% useful here.
2. People who have an interest in a more specific creature and want to be able to search for it will need to keep requesting more tags to be added. We will continue to have to have the discussion of "do we really need this? is this already covered in something else?" because the list is already pretty large and will only get larger.

But having subcategories will solve the issue of overwhelming tag numbers entirely, because ideally, no one will have to see the subcategories unless they select and "pop" the main category. That is to say, you shouldn't see every category and every subcategory all at once. You should only see it if you click the category, because only then will you actually need it.

Likewise, if someone is interested in all canines, they can search for that just fine, because all of them will come up under Canine. They won't have to bother setting a subcategory. However, someone who's only looking in foxes gets the option to cut out everything else. And I think we can all agree that elves and centaurs are very different creatures... but they're both legitimately Demihumans. It would be incredibly useful to be able to narrow that down.

Lastly, I don't think this is a one-trait feature at all. There are a lot of traits that could benefit from subcategories. If used correctly, it would really reduce how overwhelming it can be to sort through character creation.

It's important to remember that categories are not meant to be as specific as the trait can be (ever). They were never meant to be specific preset values of a given trait, but more broad buckets that you could put people into to make searching and comparing easier. We would basically have to add every imaginable species that there is were this to be added and they could no longer be described as "categories" very accurately.

However, we've already started adding highly specific things, like bat (and keep in mind, I'm not suggesting we go any more specific than that, because that really is unnecessary). Right now, it's basically an unorganized mess of super broad to really zeroed in. I think the entire feature is less useful this way. I feel very strongly that we either need to stick to one level of detail (not have something like bats listed alongside demihumans) or come up with a reasonable and organized way to display the more specific things (which I think is the better route than taking away traits that people find useful, enough that they continue to request more of them).

Oh, forgot to add: you don't actually need to add every species under the sun. That would be silly, and I'm not sure why that conclusion is being jumped to (I've seen it in more than one topic). It's clearly unfeasible. You just need to add the most popular species and an "other" category.

The conclusion is being reached because it is a natural conclusion when there is no downside to adding a bunch of specific categories - there's no more limiting factor in keeping the list tidy, since the complexity is being hidden away by subcategories, and people naturally want their very specific species added. We've already seen people do this (some you've pointed out) and I have no reason to believe there will be any less of the suggestions coming when people start seeing e.g Tiger or Wolf added.

"other" categories almost entirely defeat the point of having categories entirely, and should be avoided if we can.

Then what you say is "There's not enough interest in [very obscure species] to give it its own trait." The limiting factor is keeping the list tidy. As noted, it's currently not tidy. There's no reason or rhyme. I think creating reason and rhyme would actually reduce the amount of noise you get, and this is one simple way to accomplish that.

But I really don't think it's going to be the magnitude of problem that you expect. Some species are just naturally more popular than others, which is why they get requested over and over again. A lot of people like those species especially and see value in being able to search for them specifically. You will continue to get requests for these species over and over again, forever. But once you've implemented the really popular ones (which are very easy to figure out), it's going to be much less of an issue. I can't see more than 5-10 subcategories being necessary for anything, really, and 10 is a high end.

"Other" categories aren't strictly necessary here, but it will give people with a very obscure species that isn't going to get utilized a place to put themselves rather than requesting it. It says "here is a place for you" rather than "you haven't been added yet."