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Feedback ยท Delete the Secondary Sexual Characteristics trait (implemented)

related to Overhaul Gender Options

This may ruffle some feathers but if that brings out discussion about the value of this trait, that's a good thing.

I think Secondary Sexual Characteristics should be removed, because it's not pulling its weight and it's too vague to operate on when creating, reading, or searching for a profile. If it's doing something useful, we should replace it with a more clear and direct trait. There are other gender traits and multiple other traits for sexual characteristics, so I'm not sure where that leaves this one needed.

These thoughts came after we earnestly discussed revising the description of its both category. We probably got a better description of it. But it also became clear there's very little that's really a distinctly male or female secondary sexual characteristic — the stand-out ones are facial hair and breasts and there is already a trait for one of those. It's either trying to say too much or too little or not saying it in a useful way.

In practice I think people are using this to indicate they're overall male or female, regardless of plumbing. Unless they're a female with a very masculine build or vice versa. Hermaphrodites are theoretically meant to use it to indicate whether they're male or female hermaphrodites, but they can almost universally indicate that with breasts or lack thereof. I'm not sure how meaningful it is for trans men or women. I know with a straightforward cis character I can pretty easily just tick 'male' or 'female' in all the gender/sex traits, but that's about the only case I'm clear on.

I suggest we remove SSC, and use sex, mental gender, and breasts (or lack thereof) to express what's going on, including for hermaphrodites.

The alternatives I see are: do that but give male/female hermaphrodites separate Sex categories. Or, rename SSC to something like "Body Gender" that's just straightforward and clear that this is overall what you really are, along with a rename of Both to Androgynous. I am not sure either of these are more optimal though, and we can revisit the Body Gender thing later. This suggestion doesn't cover actually doing these.

If you have thoughts on the matter, please express them.

meta info

endorsement points: 67

created: 27 July 15 at 02:01 PM (build: 7/17/2015 2:30 AM beta)

closed: 08 December 16 at 09:10 PM (build: 8/21/2016 1:52 AM beta)

Yasu Tsukuda

I would, as a trans character, prefer the first option myself. I believe that male and female hermaphrodites can be expressed clearly by the status of or lack of breast tissue. I can express the transitional state of my character in the same way. A transwoman can do the same, by indicating a status of breasts and penis of vagina.

Wrecked Avent Site Administrator

The feedback title says remove but the feedback body lists some non-removal options. Please either move these onto another suggestion or remove them entirely, since endorsing this should be seen as a desire to remove this trait entirely.

Velus

I edited the thing.

Desdemona Fireheart

A shemale would then be expressed by sex "male" and any breast-size except "male". But I think one should see the gender of a character by looking at "gender". The breast size has nothing to do with the gender. "Male" is not a breast size, it is the type of the chest. It's like adding "female" to penis size. It should be removed, not the gender system based on it.

I think the breasts should be added to "sex" (like it's done at F-List, yes). Male, female, Female with penis, Male with breasts, Hermaphrodit with breasts, Hermaphrodit without breasts. This would have the advantage that the search and the preferences would work with it.

Wrecked Avent Site Administrator

I don't think the direction we're going in involves combining sex and ... something else ... into one monster category. The thing F-list does is a huge problem for a laundry list of reasons, and is not in any way something we should look to replicate.

A "shemale" would be expressed, today, as such:

  • Mental Gender of Female
  • Gender Expression of Female
  • Sex of Male
  • Secondary Sexual Characteristics of Female

This suggestion supposes, and other seem to agree, that this is a bit too complicated and perhaps a little redundant. With this suggestion being implemented (and one or two others with it), we would move to this:

  • Mental Gender of Female
  • Apparent Gender of Female
  • Genitals of Penis

"Apparent gender" would cover the "look and feel" of the character, "mental gender" would cover the pronouns they prefer to use and how they identify, and genitals is duh.

These three are sufficiently expressive for all of the possible "gender" options f-list has, but works more thoroughly with preferences and orientations, such as an orientation that doesn't care what's in your pants, so long as you look like a woman. It also avoids derogatory terms like "shemale".

Desdemona Fireheart

Well, the suggestion says: I suggest we remove SSC, and use sex, mental gender, and breasts (or lack thereof) to express what's going on. Your version sounds more convincing. Apparent gender would then include the body and "breast size" isn't needed to know if the guy has breasts . If his apparent gender is "male" then he cannot have breasts. Is there a suggestion already for "apparent gender"?

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