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Feedback · Replace feedback points with a simple upvote system. (needs discussion)

Litphoria's points for feedback is a good idea in theory, but in practice you run into some problems.

People don't know how to spend points

People spend all their points and then don't want to spend any on other things.

People spend their points and then have to fiddle to move their points around.

Point values can tell very different stories. Something with 500 points could have 50 people supporting it with 10 points each or just 5.

People just don't understand the system.

I propose that the system be replaced with a simple upvote system. If you like the idea of a feature, click a button saying so and you're done. Conversations can be continued as per usual. But things like the roadmap for instance would be a lot easier to grasp and users would have an easier time participating in the site's development.

meta info

endorsement points: 0

created: 19 September 16 at 05:27 PM (build: 8/21/2016 1:52 AM beta)

closed: 01 October 16 at 12:36 AM (build: 8/21/2016 1:52 AM beta)

Wrecked Avent Site Administrator

The main reason for having the endorsement system over simple voting is, well, there's only one of me, and a lot of cool ideas to do.

If you can just upvote everything, then most people will do just that, and it's far less meaningful to figure out what people actually want versus what they just simply like.

Korra

I'd like to seriously weigh up voting vs endorsement points. Taking what both WA said and the feedback, I want to see how they achieve that goal: showing what people want. (I'll consider it a bonus if it also tells the developer/s if stuff should be worked on particularly soon.)

I'll make the following assumptions about voting (all of which I consider quite reasonable): the only place to upvote a suggestion is on its feedback page; the amount of things you can upvote is unlimited (you can upvote anything once if you'd really like to do that);

How people spend endorsement points varies: I know some people have waited for a single good thing to dump all/most of their 100 points into; I myself have my points spread wide and have 1-5 points in most things I support and maybe 40 in one big thing and 10 in another.


Even on facebook/imgur/stack exchange/tumblr and other medium where people are encouraged to "like" a lot of stuff, people only like stuff they actually like. I think it's reasonable to say that if someone likes something, they'll be happy with it being on the site! So, what people want and what they like is pretty much the same thing. (It just won't tell us how much they want it.)

If everyone votes on what they want and like, then we wind up with the most-liked (most-wanted) suggestions pushed to the top. This tells us what feature implementations would, in theory, satisfy the most people at once. That's pretty good!

Let's consider what the endorsement points do in that regard though. As in a recent circumstance, a suggestion with 500 points might have just, I don't know, five people who want it, or at least think they want it. Meanwhile, another suggestion sitting at, say, 328 might have, I don't know, thirty different people who want it, endorsing it with between 1-50 points each. I don't know those figures. A suggestion one person wants could sit at 100, while a suggestion ten people want sit at the same figure, or maybe just 50, depending on how many points they each feel they could put into it.

So endorsement points don't really tell us much at all about who wants what. They just tell us by how many points' worth people want a thing. Is that actually a useful metric to know? Since peoples' point spending varies a lot, we could have the feature the most people want sitting at a fairly low number of points, while a suggestion only three people want sits near the top of the roadmap, so I don't think that's actually all that useful.

Let's go back to that notion that votes don't tell us how much people want something. Do endorsement points do that? I don't think so, very reliably. I put 50 points into something I realy like --- I'd spend 100, but I don't want to drop all numeric indication of support of other things I like. Someone else puts 100 points into one other feedback because there's nothing else they're particularly interested in. Does that person want their thing twice as much as I want my thing? Not necessarily; they just had the points to spare. Let's assume we both want our separate things just as much: should their want count twice as hard as my want? I don't think so, we're both just two people who want a thing. Heck, I really want a few things I have only 5 points in. All this means is that because I want more than one thing, my want is counted for less numerically. You can only tell how much I want something by how much I'm spending on it compared to other stuff.

However... people have only 100 points to spend. To spend points on something new, I have to support other things a little less or drop support entirely. So the things I spend points on are probably the things I most want, but this still doesn't tell you how much or how immediately I want something -- except by how many points I spend on it compared to other stuff, maybe. You just have my top, say, 20 list.

I consider that a problem as well though. Our data on what people want moves over time. People might still want other features, they just don't have room to indicate it anymore in light of other stuff. Ok, they want that new stuff more, evidently, but we're losing valuable data. An old suggestion gets support from a couple of dozen people, it doesn't get implemented, points start to drain away from it because they don't see the point in leaving it there compared to more immediate stuff, — we lose valuable information about things people might still want.


The score at this point is:

  • Voting tells us what people want, but not how much they want it.
  • Endorsement points don't really tell us much about what people want nor necessarily how much they want it; they tell us a lot about an abstraction which sorta-relates to both of those, but doesn't strike me as all that useful on either metric. We still don't know how many people want a thing nor really how much they want it.

We still don't know how many people want a thing, nor really how much they want the thing. Neither system does that. I'd suggest, however, if we additionally give people a small number of (let's pick a fun metaphor) "high priority stickers", and tell them to stick them on the suggestions they feel they need most immediately (they get X new stickers per month and/or can move them around), then we get lots of data about what people want, and clear data about what people think is most immediately needed. We could have a thing 20 people like but 1 person considers high priority, and a thing 15 people like and 10 people consider high priority. That seems more useful to me than "328 points". (You'll probably almost always upvote the things you give high priority stickers to. High priority stickers are counted separate from votes; they don't add to the vote count in any way and are displayed publicly.)


In summary, I feel that a voting system with a way to indicate priority in addition to and separately from voting wins out over endorsement points in most ways: we get clear information, we get a lot of information, and it doesn't encourage information loss.

Korra

uh, replace "We still don't know how many people want a thing, nor really how much they want the thing" with "We still only know how many people want a thing, not how much they want the thing."

Desdemona Fireheart

The endorsement system has no down vote. Something a majority dislikes can still get a good vote since only those who like it can spend points. Another major problem is, that we discuss details, though the basics are not decided yet. It's not clear if the car shall become a bus or a taxi, but we vote for the color and the size of the doors. For the Interests we have a consensus more or less that we want a bus, a big list with many hundreds interests. But for the traits this is unclear.

Wrecked Avent Site Administrator

We can argue about the value of endorsements vs. flat up votes, but I don't think we're going to be moving to a system that has down voting as well.

Alva Hargrave

My issues with the endorsement system currently are: - Points can be easily lost to the void in cases where something you put them into gets declined. - Putting points into something you want that does not go anywhere or gets drowned out by other suggestions feels like a waste.

I often found myself in situations where I had to withdraw points from something I deeply wanted accepted to drop a few into a new trait or interest. Unfortunately, I have little motivation to use the few points I have remaining on anything other than automatically accepted interests because the return is instantaneous.

Korra

Putting points into something you want that does not go anywhere or gets drowned out by other suggestions feels like a waste.

That's how I feel about all the things I have any non-huge amount of points into.

I feel I don't have much impact putting 40 into something when it takes 2 people to push anything else right up to 200.

Jase Garret

I do like the idea of being able to basically +1 (and -1?) anything at all with a traditional thump up/ thumb down, so I'm not totally negative on this feedback. But I ALSO still like the idea of assigning points to things. The thumb up would let me vote up those things I like but can't assign points to because they are all currently assigned to the feedback(s) that I consider to be critical. There's no way I'm going to go to the trouble of un-assigning points to some things just to be able to put 1 point on a wide number of things, therefore I currently only have a handful of up-voted feedbacks right now. That does mean that I generally don't even look at feedbacks much because I have no points to assign. Having the fine resolution of what feedbacks are widely 'liked' might be useful to the Dev. But then, these comments are basically expanded thumbs-up/thumbs-down.

The Mood is Write

A good combination of the two might be a scale of upvotes/likes. I'll use symbols below to try to show what I mean. Beyond my proposal, we could also limit how many votes at each part of the scale a person can give, to prevent rating spam.

Assume each item in feedback has a scale of one to five, represented by... let's say for the sake of the example, five dots. •••••

These dots are possible points you can put into it. You have, in theory, infinite points on your account in this situation. Each dot represents... maybe five endorsement points in the current setup, allowing a single person to give a suggestion 25 points.

As you click one of the dots (or somehow input your rating), they turn into another symbol. For my example, we'll use hearts, because I know the alt code easily.

So, confronted by two suggestions you like, you can put one star into one feedback and four into another based on how badly you feel you MUST HAVE the thing. Like this: (all suggestions below are purely satirical, please no pitchforks)

SUGGESTION: Ban all kemonomimi.

Maybe you love this and feel strongly about it. You give it five hearts. Maybe you think it'd be interesting, but don't really give too much a damn, so you put just one.

Maybe you're confronted by two suggestions you feel are absolutely vital to your continued stay on Litphoria.

SUGGESTION: Make WA buy everyone plane tickets and throw us a pizza party.

SUGGESTION: Get rid of that elitist, Moody.

You might have agonized over dumping all your points into just one or the other to show how you REALLY feel (jerk), but now you can give full stars on both, make your selfish thoughts known (anonymously), and can still max out points on other vital feedback you find, like bug fixes and quality-of-life enhancements that tug at your heart just as strongly as spending WA's money and being rid of me at long last (like trying to convince WA that we need the ability to tag our profile images individually as NSFW).

Anyway, that's my not-fully-awake babble on the topic. I personally don't mind the current system. It doesn't seem too bothersome to me, but there also isn't a whole lot I feel needs done at this point that isn't already in the works.

Desdemona Fireheart

The amount of endorsement points one can spend for a suggestion could be massively reduced, lets say to five points at max. Then it would be clear that a suggestion with 100 points is really popular and has not just one fan who put all her points into it.It would be more similar to an upvote system then.

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